I thought this was a great episode and VERY interesting for many reasons. One of the biggest tidbits we learned blew my assumption I've been going on since last season that the people back on the Island did not experience the same three year absence that the Losties back in civilization did. It seems now that the only person who skipped the three-year difference is Locke.Not only did the Islanders live those 3 years, they lived them around 1974 as members of the Dharma Initiative. In the previous post's comments, Robetron made some excellent observations of timing and events we've already seen (I'll copy his post into this comment section). First off THANK YOU for remembering that Horace was the dead guy in the woods Locke met. I KNEW I recognized him but couldn't place from where. Robetron also notes Robert's scraggly appearance when he meets Ben as a child as compared to looking like he stepped out of a J. Crew catalog when he confronts Horace, meaning that Ben is probably already on the Island and somehow working w/ the Others. I too remember noticing how clean cut Robert looked in this episode and wondered where the Others were living since they weren't yet in the Dharma facilities. Also interesting to see Amy successfully give birth (w/ Juliette's help) to a son...something the Others never were able to do. What happened between then and now that makes all the babies and moms die?
I think we all had guessed Sawyer and Juliette would hook up, but it was interesting to see the changes in his character. He really seems to care about these people, Amy, Horace, and his love for Juliette has brought out a sweet side of him we've never seen before. They truely seem happy together, I'm honestly a little sad to know that will be screwed with by the "Foundies" return (hehe I like that name). It will be strange for Juliette too given her past feelings for Jack.
As for past references to LaFleur, googling "Lost Lafleur" obviously gets us nowhere since that was the title of this episode, so that's all that comes up. Does anyone remember a past reference?
Just one final note, I was irritated we never learned why the Others shot Paul and were going to shoot Amy. Supposedly Sawyer and Juliette killing the shooters broke the "truce" between Dharma and the Others, but doesn't shooting an innocent couple who looked to be out for a pinic also break that truce? Why did no one bring that up??
28 comments:
Posted by Robetron
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*NO SPOILERS*
Dude! LaFleur? LAFLEUR?!
Okay, hold on for that. That has to be huge, but I haven't found what I was looking for yet.
In my search for LaFleur, I discovered that the guy who stopped the car to help Ben's mom and dad right after he was born was none other than Horace. The woman with whom he was driving was likely the woman to whom he referred in tonight's episode about having to get over someone. Her name was Olivia, and she was a Teacher for the Dharma Initiative. What we saw tonight must have happened AFTER Ben arrived on the Island.
Before Ben met Richard beyond the pylons, Richard was very rough looking with long hair and scruff. We might logically conclude that what we saw last night happened after Ben started working with "the Others."
How interesting that it was Horace that appeared to John in the vision telling him how to find what he needed. It was Horace's corpse where that map was found in his pocket down in the mass grave.
But where have we seen the name "LaFleur" on a jump suit before? I know I have seen it somewhere in the show.
Another observation in my search. Ben was something special to the Island and was anointed as the leader of the Others. Now John is supposed to be special and the leader. Ben was a a premie by two months too soon. John was born premature also. Connection? Hmmm...
But, where have we heard or seen the name LaFleur before? I have sped through four episodes looking for flashbacks of the DI where there might have been someone by with a jumpsuit with that name on the pocket. It has to be there because I like trying to pronounce odd words, and when I see them in print, I try to pronounce them in my head. I remember trying with "LaFleur." but where?
Another interesting tidbit: By her sixth month on the Island, Juliet knew of Jacob, and that if he said he would accomplish the impossible, she should believe it. When Ben told her Jacob said he would cure her sister's cancer, Ben pressed her to stay by saying, "unless you don't have faith in HIM..." as she stood somewhat shocked at the news. All of the oddball stuff that has been going on with the Island, she has known something about Jacob, which she has not thought to share with the group.
I have been digging and reviewing for hours, and I can't find it. Anyone else know where the name "LaFleur" has been used in relation to Dharma in previous episodes?
If it were not 3:30 in the AM, I might keep digging, but I must quit for today.
Namaste', thank you, and good luck.
-R.
12:32 AM
LaFleur, I think you should look at the beginning when Hurley found the van. I can't remember but I believe there was a lot of commenting on the name of the dead guy that they found.
I'm pretty sure the dead guy they found in the van was Ben's father, but I don't remember his last name, anyone?
The corpse in Hurley's van was Ben's father, the name on the jumpsuit was Roger (Linus, I assume, unless Ben's lying about that as a last name) and beneath that it said "workman" -- format of all jumpsuits, except LaFleur, appears to be FIRST name followed by job title (as in "Horace, mathematician").
I have DEFINITELY seen LaFleur somewhere before. I've been going through all the screen caps I can find but haven't found the shot, I'm about to go back through the epis themselves. Perhaps it was on one of the corpses in the mass grave (epis 3:20 and 4:11, I believe, unless we've seen it more than twice?) -- maybe was one that had a bullet hole in the head, implying not a victim of the Purge-By-Gas... -- unless it was shown during the purge scene itself.
I don't know what the Amy/Olivia story is. Other boards are speculating that they were brother and sister, not husband and wife. Horace's angst comes from fearing Amy might not be over her husband at the beginning of the episode, 3 years earlier when Leftovers saved her life. His name was Paul. He wore an Ankh. Paul Anka? Just sayin' (Actually, just repeatin' a clever catch/cute joke I saw elsewhere.)
Finally, I think the statue is more likely to be Thoth. Very powerful and also carries an ankh. Read up on wiki and other places about his many responsibilities and attributes. Primarily: Science, Religion, Philosophy, Magic (you know, Lost stuff). Also, remove a letter and it's similar to an upcoming episode title (although I'm sure there'll also be a simpler reason for that title offered during epi), plus, see if YOU notice any similarities to our Losties in his 5 common/public names (I saw several). But MOST crucial to my theory is that he judged souls -- and not simply as good OR bad but rather to maintain equilibrium, to keep good and evil balanced (which kinda reminds me of Smokey/Cerberus and the scanning process, not to mention the island itself) -- and, to that end, could heal/resurrect Gods on both sides of power struggles. Oh, and he also acted as an instrument to prevent infertility... I'm convinced that this God will figure prominently in the final puzzle.
--AgonyAnne
Wow Anne that's some awesome research and interesting theories! I do believe Ben's dad's last name was Linus, so the search for LeFleur continues...
Can I just say thank you for putting my mind at ease a little. I keeping insisting to my friends and husband that we have seen LaFleur on a DI jumpsuit before and nobody believes me. I've been racking my brain and following leads but for the life of me I can't remember where it was. Good luck with your search!
I went, in detail, through the episodes with the mass grave. No "LaFleur."
I went through the scenes where Ben returns to the DI compound after murdering his father. No LaFleur.
I went back to the first season, thinking we might have see a "borrowed" jumpsuit on Desmond, or someone else. No dice there either. I was beginning to think it was just in my head, but since Anonymous (above) said the same thing, it must have been in there somewhere. I WILL find it, but it will be a race to see if I can find it before the show itself reminds us where it was we saw the name.
Another observation that will make you go, "OOOoooo" :
Amy? Amy was her name? The name of the woman who successfully gave birth this passed Wednesday? Woah...
AMY was the name of the little girl that befriended Ben as a small boy when he first arrived on the island. She gave him the wooden carved-doll for his birthday, the only present he received that day. (Unless you consider it just a bad present when his drunken father told him it was too hard to celebrate the day he killed his mother.)
If that is the same AMY (and, really, it must be. How often do we run across same-namers in TV shows?)... the reason The Others killed her husband may well have been from a request from Ben out of jealousy. We do not know if they really intended to kill Amy, though, it did look like it. I wonder if Ben was trying to manipulate her into turning to him. It may have been one of the earliest examples of him trying to play puppet master.
What do you think?
-R.
Man, how angry will Ben be at Sawyer/James when he finds out it was he who not only foiled his plan to get Amy and her baby for himself, but Sawyer also managed to secure the affections of Juliette.
I see violence in the future.
That'd be a great plot twist but Ben's childhood friend was named Annie not Amy. I'm sure there will be some connection between the people we already know and the two new babies who were introduced -- the one just born to Amy and Horace and the child of Dr. Pierre Chang (aka Dr. Candle/Dr. Wickman/Dr. Halliwax...clues or jokes?) seen at the beginning of episode 5:01.
--AgonyAnne
To those who have seen LaFleur before, I have too. I cannot remember either where it was. Maybe hanging in the hatch or the medical station where Juliet took Sun. But I know I have seen it before. Keep looking!
Not sure if you guys have already gone over this but I'll throw this out there. I'm guessing (at the risk of sounding like I go around lumping all people of asian descent together) that Dr. Chang's baby is Miles. The age is about right and it would explain why Miles wanted to stay on the island instead of going back to the freighter and why he started getting nosebleeds from the time travel earlier instead of later (i.e. shortly after Charlotte but before Sawyer). Aside from him saying he's from Encino we don't know much about his roots.
AgonyAnne,
Now that you mention it, I think you are right. The little girl's name was Annie, not Amy. The time frame seemed to fit, and it was very late the other night when I was researching for LaFleur. Pardon my flub, everyone. (It would be a great plot twist, though, right?)
Lea,
I think you are right. If I'm not mistaken, we went from the birth scene straight to Miles tromping through the jungle. But then again, the show-creators do that stuff on purpose to make us think one thing, and then go another way with it. (Its something of a clever story-telling device that keeps people coming back the next week.) Be that as it may, I still think you are right about Miles; he very likely is the son of Chang/ Candlewickwax.
Nothing for certain on LaFleur yet. I'll let you all know if I find anything.
-R
Another observation:
In episode 5.03, "Jughead," when Faraday told Richard he could disarm the hydrogen bomb, he was taken to it by the same woman who captured him. Her name, at the time, was "Elie."
Daniel kept staring at her, and it freaked her out so she told him to quit. He said, "You just look so much like...someone I used to know."
We know the young man at the camp was the younger version of Charles Widmore. Has anyone considered, or mentioned that "Elie" would be short for "Eloise?"
I think Daniel saw familiarity in the young woman because she was his mother 50 years earlier.
An amusing observation of no real consequence:
In 3.04, "Every Man For Himself," Sawyer had busted the guy in the nose in the previous episode. As Kate and Sawyer were talking about a plan to get out of the cages, Sawyer called him "broken-nose man."
Kate said, "They call him 'Picket.'" This had to be on purpose. How could anyone accidentally juxtapose the two names to sound like, "Broken-nose man" and "Pick-it?"
Yes, its late in my search for LaFleur again.
:))
I just read an interesting theory about the Lost mythos. This is a portion of a comment regarding the show in general on another blog site.
"The statue is Eqyptian and w/alittle research found Bast(catheaded)is the Goddess of fertility and childbirth. And she is damaged right now--I think causing the infertility. The gods and goddesses are animal-like hence four toes. (John's casted foot looked like his small toe was covered by the cast which is normal-I've worn one.) I think Richard Alpert is Ra the Eqyptian Sun God and immortal, not the leader, but the Others are his people. Horus was the God of war (get it?) and Anubis the God that "brings dead to the afterlife" is "distinctly black"(the smoke cloud under the island?) The Anhk was given by the gods as a symbol of life (physical and eternal) and "bestowed immortality." They are in all the pictures of the Egyptian gods."
--I think that holds some weight. Its all polytheistic foolishness, but hey, whats TV for if not foolishness?
-R.
Tee hee: Pick-it! I didn't get that when I watched.
Yes, I DO think young Elie is old Mrs. Hawking. Yes, I believe Daniel knows her from somewhere and thy have a connection of some sort. But I'm not yet totally convinced that she is his mother -- it has been implied but not confirmed. When Daniel tells Desmond to find his mother, he's time-zapped before he can utter her name; when Desmond goes to Widmore and asks about Dan's mom, Widmore gives him Hawking's address. Eazy-squeezy, sure, except this is Lost. Naomi's "Tell my sister I love her" was code for I've just been fatally harmed. So until Danny rushes into Eloise Hawking's arms screaming, "Mommy!" I'm going to remain skeptical...you know, cuz it's Lost.
Yes, I too think Chang's child is Miles. I suspect Widmore selected that team precisely because he knew they had all been there before, whether they themselves knew it or not -- and disguised their details (from everyone but probably mostly from Ben) by forging documents. But for what possibly megalomaniacal reason we have yet to learn...
Daniel has a constant, which prevented his nosebleed; Sawyer and Juliet hadn't been there as long, at that time anyway, so their bleeds started later. But my question is, if Chang's child is Miles, and Miles is there again now, what will happen? I thought one of the rules was "No X-ing Yourself" -- that, according to Daniel, to cross your own path directly, to meet yourself in different time phases, would create a deadly paradox. If Miles were to babysit himself, would all iterations of him just suddenly go POOF and disappear? Would his consciousness as an infant, recognize himself? Or what?
And, still, Where's LaFleur is nagging at me brain! Thank you, Robetron, for staying on top of it.
--AgonyAnne
On a separate note, where are all the other Losties? Locke and the the Oceanic 6 want to "save" their friends back on the island right? Who is left other than Jin and Sawyer really to save? Where did they go? Have they been sitting on the beach through all this time traveling just getting really confused about what is happening?
David, they haven't really told us what happened with the rest who scattered in the attack of the militant Others from the past. It is possible they all died in the attack, but I don;t think so. I would assume searches will be/have been conducted, and further adventures trying to get them back together may take place.
For all:
I am out of ideas where to look. I have literally skimmed through almost every episode where there was any possibility of seeing a DI jumpsuit, and I have found nothing. I am beginning to think that the place I saw it and pronounced it in my head was, perhaps, at the beginning of the most recent episode, and then, later, I started thinking I had seen it before. Its a psychosomatic thing. With all the time-jumping, forward and backward, and flash-backs, and flash-forwards... who can blame us?
If anyone has an idea where I should look, just mention it, and I will research it. Short of more input, I'm going to give up.
-R.
P.S. "LaFleur" is a Creole-French word that means "the flower," from which, I refer us all back to the picture at the lead of this thread in order to remember how James brought Juliette the flower.
(It was a little sissified, if any asks me, but, whatever...)
What's going to happen with this new love-quadrangle with Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Jules?
What will Jin do when he sees Sun was brought back to the island against his wishes?
Does anyone have any clue about the significance of (yes, I am going to type them in, and hit "enter"...) 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42... ?
Yes I think the theories that Miles is Chang's kid and gun-happy 1954ish Ellie is Eloise are dead on, very exciting! I agree though that we don't know for sure Eloise is Dan's mom, there was something strange about how she reacted when Des referred to her as Dan's mom.
The fertility goddess is a good idea too, though the flash that took the Losties from the statue to Dharma time did not show that the statue was still standing there, yet Amy was still able to have a live birth.
David - that's a good question about the other group of Losties, I had forgotten about the flaming arrow attack on the beach that caused them all to scatter. I think when Locke claims the Foundies need to same "them" he's referring mostly to Sawyer, Jin and Juliette, maybe also Miles, Dan and (the now late) Charlotte.
Re: Hurley's numbers, did you guys notice when Danielle's group rescued Jin, they were tracking the frequency broadcasting from the tower, and all it was were the Numbers being repeated over and over...
Oh, don't give up, Robetron! I started looking at screen caps a few weeks ago, as soon as I saw the episode title, because the name triggered something in my memory. I was convinced I'd seen it before the episode even aired so I can avoid the second-guessing you're now experiencing. I've given up on screen caps though, the label probably only showed for a fraction of a second, so I'm going back to viewing episodes at normal speed. Will keep you posted (I'm watching them in sequence though so give me some time).
-- AgonyAnne
I have to laugh.... I think the producers are sitting back laughing right now, knowing that this was going to stir up something. I hope we find it.... but I am beginning to have my doubts.
I guess if we still want to look for it, we have another week.
I hate delays.
:|
-R.
Maybe "LaFleur" was never on a Dharma uniform before this episode. Maybe people just find it familiar cause it was one of the mentioned aliases for Sawyer before and he decided to use this one when first lying to Horace. This is just a hypothesis. I haven't looked into it at all.
David - that's an excellent point, was LaFleur one of Sawyer's old aliases? I don't recall and sadly don't own the DVDs, but I know one of you out there could look it up. :)
Sawyer told Miles, Juliet, and Jin that LaFleur was one of his aliases and that it was Creole. That's all I know about it. I don't recall it from earlier episodes at all...
What's this chick smoking?
I am POSITIVE I've seen the name LaFleur printed on a jumpsuit in an old episode. I just can't find where. Damon Lindelof is probably laughing at all of our inability to find where...
As for "same namers";
Charlie Pace
Charles Widmore
Charlie Hume (Desmond & Penny's son)
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